D16 Deer Hunting - Lead-free or not?

[Deerdon]

Ok......You've sold me......lol

Is there a factory copper load for .243......My concern is, the lead we shoot now is only 90 grs (Federal Fusion).....How light is copper?.....And is it ballistically capable of killing a deer?

Barnes Vortex 80grain TTSX 3350fps
Doubletap ammo - w/Barnes 85grain TSX 3320fps
Federal premium Trophy Copper 85 grain ( I believe they use E-tip bullets) 3200fps.

You want to go with a lighter bullet for copper. So....an 80 grain copper bullet will be noticeably longer than the same grain lead bullet. Lead is heavier, but will sluff off when going through a deer. You see this then when you recover a lead bullet and find the copper jacket flared/mushroomed but the lead in that part of the bullet is gone. Most notable in partitions as you find the front upper part with no lead. Copper will flower/mushroom but will retain virtually 99% of its weight. Having said that, copper will not mushroom as easily as lead at lower velocities. Hence my statement...SPEED is a good thing. I prefer the polymer tipped versions. Barnes has a video out that shows them shooting a cherry tomato and you can actually see the bullet mushroom! A bit of a trade off as a copper bullet is more likely to give you two holes while a lead bullet might give you just an entrance hole.

An 80 grain copper bullet will give you more penetration that the 90 grain lead version. Deer are pretty thin skinned animals...I would not hesitate shooting 80 grain copper for deer.

 

[ilovesprig]

D,

Thanks for the explanation.....I like Federal.....I'll give them a try 1st.

 

[Geofish]

I plan to shoot my 30-06 Model 70. I bagged Whitetail and a Red Deer in Mississippi and Louisiana using Core-Lokt 180gr.

Today I purchased some Federal Power Shok Copper, but they only had 150gr. I bought them and need to resight for the different bullet and grain. I understand that my muzzel velocity is now greater and my trajectory will be flatter.......but what is you opinion on going from 180 to 150? And add the copper projectile will I notice a significant drop in performance?

 

[Geofish]

D,

Thanks for the explanation.....I like Federal.....I'll give them a try 1st.

Have you tried the Power Shok Copper?

 

[longbowhunter2]

Barnes Vortex 80grain TTSX 3350fps
Doubletap ammo - w/Barnes 85grain TSX 3320fps
Federal premium Trophy Copper 85 grain ( I believe they use E-tip bullets) 3200fps.

You want to go with a lighter bullet for copper. So....an 80 grain copper bullet will be noticeably longer than the same grain lead bullet. Lead is heavier, but will sluff off when going through a deer. You see this then when you recover a lead bullet and find the copper jacket flared/mushroomed but the lead in that part of the bullet is gone. Most notable in partitions as you find the front upper part with no lead. Copper will flower/mushroom but will retain virtually 99% of its weight. Having said that, copper will not mushroom as easily as lead at lower velocities. Hence my statement...SPEED is a good thing. I prefer the polymer tipped versions. Barnes has a video out that shows them shooting a cherry tomato and you can actually see the bullet mushroom! A bit of a trade off as a copper bullet is more likely to give you two holes while a lead bullet might give you just an entrance hole.

An 80 grain copper bullet will give you more penetration that the 90 grain lead version. Deer are pretty thin skinned animals...I would not hesitate shooting 80 grain copper for deer.

Welcome Deerdon and thanks for the great info

 

[Deerdon]

I plan to shoot my 30-06 Model 70. I bagged Whitetail and a Red Deer in Mississippi and Louisiana using Core-Lokt 180gr.

Today I purchased some Federal Power Shok Copper, but they only had 150gr. I bought them and need to resight for the different bullet and grain. I understand that my muzzel velocity is now greater and my trajectory will be flatter.......but what is you opinion on going from 180 to 150? And add the copper projectile will I notice a significant drop in performance?

Going from 180 lead to 150 copper is just what you needed to do. The increased speed will help in performance. A 180 copper bullet would be substantially longer that a 180 lead and you would need to spin it up more to keep it stable anyways. Some of these long range shooter are using heavy copper, but they have barrels with 1:9 or 1:8 twist rates. Back in the day, I was doing the same thing as many...meaning bigger bullets were better. However, 180 grain lead bullets are really overkill for deer anyways. I went from 140 Accubonds in my 270wsm to 110 Barnes TTSX copper...and like I said, it was a Bang-Flop kill. I did notice some significant hydrostatic shok in the lung area, and that was probably attributed to the increased speed. From my own experience, I would say you will notice no drop in performance and, in fact, you will experience less drop in trajectory at longer ranges and also a possible decrease in the size of your groups at the range. Overall that would mean an increase in performance. The only real downside for some I might see is that you do need speed for the copper to perform at its best. However, this is usually taken care of by dropping bullet weight. The issue would be more relevant at the loooonger ranges. Barnes has come out with an LRX bullet that is supposed to help with that. But I rarely, if ever, shoot far enough for that to be an issue. I did go to the 129 grain LRX in my own gun...but that was more for the speed...and I ended up being able to cover a three shot group with a quarter too!. I was never able to shoot clover leaf groups with any lead combo I had ever tried before. I know people do it all the time...just did find the right combo for my particular gun maybe?

 

[xjon]

Deerdon- Thanks for taking the time to explain the whole copper bullet performance. I've tried several experiments with them and could never get them to group tighter than my lead rounds. Ive tried several bullets in several rifles from 223 to 308. Most trials in the 308. Tried Hornady GMX, Nosler LF(?), Barnes tsx and ttsx, even the cutting edge bullets. My best groups were with the tsx and ttsx with barnes.

So my 308 with a 1:8 twist, I have load of 168gr and 130gr tsx. Not as tight as my 178gr amax or MK's but its good enough group to hunt with.

Reading your post, I should revisit the range to increase the speed vs pressure signs and see if that would help. Thanks.

 

[longbowhunter2]

I would like to add something here. But definitely out of my league here. Most my stuff has been no further than 300 yards.
For a round the local deer. I have been a fan of lighter gr bullets. I have a light 243 hunting rifle. I believe it's 1-12 twist. With federal soft core it about 2 MOA at hundred yards. Which isn't great but good enough for my style. Mostly because of no time and money. The switch to copper will be a challenge.

 

[longbowhunter2]

Some time in the future I will be shopping for quality 260. And since retirement is close at hand I will looking at reloading to keep the cost down.

 

[xjon]

I would like to add something here. But definitely out of my league here. Most my stuff has been no further than 300 yards.
For a round the local deer. I have been a fan of lighter gr bullets. I have a light 243 hunting rifle. I believe it's 1-12 twist. With federal soft core it about 2 MOA at hundred yards. Which isn't great but good enough for my style. Mostly because of no time and money. The switch to copper will be a challenge.

Check out your bullet weight!
Bought my kid a 243 and I have been playing around with it. The twist rate is 1:10
Factory load best was 80gr barnes ttsx, followed by winchester xp 95gr extreme point and federal power shok 85gr(?). 2" groups also.
Reloading I tried 107gr nosler and keyholes showed up with 3" groups. Went to 87gr berger vld and that produced a 1" group. It would be tighter if the shooter can do a better job. Im having issues with flex in the fore end of the stock on a bipod.

Start playing with the 243 reloading.

 

[xjon]

Reloads up top and factory below.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Deerdon]

Deerdon- Thanks for taking the time to explain the whole copper bullet performance. I've tried several experiments with them and could never get them to group tighter than my lead rounds. Ive tried several bullets in several rifles from 223 to 308. Most trials in the 308. Tried Hornady GMX, Nosler LF(?), Barnes tsx and ttsx, even the cutting edge bullets. My best groups were with the tsx and ttsx with barnes.

So my 308 with a 1:8 twist, I have load of 168gr and 130gr tsx. Not as tight as my 178gr amax or MK's but its good enough group to hunt with.

Reading your post, I should revisit the range to increase the speed vs pressure signs and see if that would help. Thanks.

Note: If you are going to be reloading copper, sounds crazy but all my research and experimenting shows that they like to be loaded so the bullet is well off the lands. Barnes actually recommends a .050 jump.

 

[xjon]

Note: If you are going to be reloading copper, sounds crazy but all my research and experimenting shows that they like to be loaded so the bullet is well off the lands. Barnes actually recommends a .050 jump.

I understand barnes recommendations. I am running into magazine fitment dictating my OAL due to copper being so long. I use barnes anyways but do you find ALL copper brands require jumps that much?

Actually just checked my 168gr 308 tsx load and its off lands by .002"
Will have to revisit seat depth after this season.

 

[turkeyman 85]

THanks. I don't see where the SFVWA is closed west of S2. Can you steer me to the regs that state this?

Bulletin board in parking lot says it.....

 

[Deerdon]

I understand barnes recommendations. I am running into magazine fitment dictating my OAL due to copper being so long. I use barnes anyways but do you find ALL copper brands require jumps that much?

Actually just checked my 168gr 308 tsx load and its off lands by .002"
Will have to revisit seat depth after this season.

From what I can tell, accuracy and pressure improve if you have a little more jump. Also, I do believe most Folks are finding the same thing with the E-tip as well. Those were really the only two bullets I researched. I looked briefly at the copper Kalahari bullet, but it's more of a fragmenting bullet and I wasn't interested in that. I did have a couple conversations with the people at Barnes and they did kinda nudge me towards the TTSX rather than the TSX. Seems as though the tip helps assist with better expansion and the the BC was better also. I also have a 300wm and was looking at the same bullet you're shooting (165 grain) and I'm going with the TTSX and it has a BC of .442 compared to the TSX that is .398. But honestly...it was more for the claim of better expansion than anything, as I'm really not good enough to notice how much the better BC would help LOL!

 

[Deerdon]

THanks. I don't see where the SFVWA is closed west of S2. Can you steer me to the regs that state this?

You got me thinking about that so I looked it up....

Hunting

• 
  Also see kiosk or website
  
  Bicycles: Allowed only on designated trails or routes, but there are NONE [14 CCR § 551(j)(5)]
  
  
• Camping: NOT allowed
• Closures:

1. Hunting: Closed to hunting February 1 through August 31 except during the spring turkey season when only turkeys may be hunted
2. Public: NO access from June 1 through August 31 for deer fawning protection

Warning shot!!! Portions of the area are [14 CCR § 551(o)(50)]

• Deer hunting: D-16 general deer zone tags may not be used west of Highway S-2 [14 CCR § 551(o)(50)]
• Dog training: Allowed only in the designated portion of the area from September 1 through the end of February. DOG TRIALS ARE NOT ALLOWED. [14 CCR § 551(i)(11)]
• Fires: NOT allowed
• Horses: Allowed only on designated trails or routes, but there are NONE [14 CCR § 551(l)(22)]
• Hunt days: daily from September 1 through January 31
• Kiosk: check for any additional rules
• Land Management Plan: click here
• Natural Resources: do NOT remove vegetation, minerals, or artifacts
• Target shooting: NOT allowed (target, trap, or skeet)
• Turkey hunting: open for the fall and spring [14 CCR § 551(o)(50)]
• Vehicles: no motorized vehicles
• Weapons: Rifles and pistols are prohibited in designated areas [14 CCR § 551(r)(46)]

 

[longbowhunter2]

From what I can tell, accuracy and pressure improve if you have a little more jump. Also, I do believe most Folks are finding the same thing with the E-tip as well. Those were really the only two bullets I researched. I looked briefly at the copper Kalahari bullet, but it's more of a fragmenting bullet and I wasn't interested in that. I did have a couple conversations with the people at Barnes and they did kinda nudge me towards the TTSX rather than the TSX. Seems as though the tip helps assist with better expansion and the the BC was better also. I also have a 300wm and was looking at the same bullet you're shooting (165 grain) and I'm going with the TTSX and it has a BC of .442 compared to the TSX that is .398. But honestly...it was more for the claim of better expansion than anything, as I'm really not good enough to notice how much the better BC would help LOL!

Did a little reading while stuck on the couch. Which technique do you use to get OAl. And the distance from the lands.

 

[Deerdon]

Did a little reading while stuck on the couch. Which technique do you use to get OAl. And the distance from the lands.

I took a dremel and cut a small groove in the neck of an empty cartridge so the bullet was just snug. Then left it long, loaded it, and ejected in carefully to find the measurement for touching the lands.

 

[NBK]

I understand barnes recommendations. I am running into magazine fitment dictating my OAL due to copper being so long. I use barnes anyways but do you find ALL copper brands require jumps that much?

Actually just checked my 168gr 308 tsx load and its off lands by .002"
Will have to revisit seat depth after this season.

It's a pressure deal. You need to be .040 or better to get the right pressure curve...

BTW: I have been reloading the Barnes X since 1988. Get with the program - deep penetration, the best weight retention and massive wound cavities. Nuff said!

 

[longbowhunter2]

Barnes Vortex 80grain TTSX 3350fps
Doubletap ammo - w/Barnes 85grain TSX 3320fps
Federal premium Trophy Copper 85 grain ( I believe they use E-tip bullets) 3200fps.

You want to go with a lighter bullet for copper. So....an 80 grain copper bullet will be noticeably longer than the same grain lead bullet. Lead is heavier, but will sluff off when going through a deer. You see this then when you recover a lead bullet and find the copper jacket flared/mushroomed but the lead in that part of the bullet is gone. Most notable in partitions as you find the front upper part with no lead. Copper will flower/mushroom but will retain virtually 99% of its weight. Having said that, copper will not mushroom as easily as lead at lower velocities. Hence my statement...SPEED is a good thing. I prefer the polymer tipped versions. Barnes has a video out that shows them shooting a cherry tomato and you can actually see the bullet mushroom! A bit of a trade off as a copper bullet is more likely to give you two holes while a lead bullet might give you just an entrance hole.

An 80 grain copper bullet will give you more penetration that the 90 grain lead version. Deer are pretty thin skinned animals...I would not hesitate shooting 80 grain copper for deer.

Wow DeerDon And Xjon good stuff. I was reading the Barnes Data on the 243 TTSX and TSX and the recommended loads , COAL, BC, and Density. How much has your actual vs what Barnes recommends differ. All good stuff and very much appreciated. Now I have to get my beak wet and actually do this. I guess the factory stuff Is loosey goosey.