CaptJgray said:
On most land you can still use lead free to shoot non game animals. it seems to me that there is a much better chance of a condor getting lead from the than there is from a random gut pile from a deer or pig. Up at Tejon we are required to bury the gut piles when we are in the condor zone.
I still don't see why we are trying to save those ugly bastards... I would go extinct if my mates looked like that too
Just to clarify, I assume you meant to say you can still use lead for non-game...
Anyway, I've posted this in other hunting forums before but since I'm new here I'll plague you guys with it at least this time...
The above statement that condors more likely to get lead from a non-game animal, IMHO, is pure BS (no offense intended capt). Here's why...(looks like I'll have to post it in two parts also, board says its too long)...
I compiled most of this evidence a couple years ago and some of the links may not work any more but I can assure you they were active when I researched this originally. Here’s the info (it is quite long but I hope you will take the time to read it, it will open your eyes):
Banning lead IMHO is pseudo-science. Let's do a little thinking here:
What is a condor? - A super sized vulture.
What do condors do? - Eat dead things (carrion).
How many turkey vultures are there in the world? -
“ The current world population of this New World species almost certainly exceeds five million birds. Most populations of this adaptable species appear to be thriving.”
(source: http://www.hawkmountain.org/raptorpedia/hawks-at-hawk-mountain/hawk-species-at-hawk-mountain/turkey-vulture/page.aspx?id=644 )
What do turkey vultures do? - Eat dead things (carrion).
So, explain this to me - WHY AREN'T TURKEY VULTURES DROPPING LIKE FLYS (OR CONDORS) DUE TO LEAD POISONING SINCE THEY FILL THE SAME EXACT NICHE (AND EAT THE SAME EXACT THINGS) AS THE CONDORS??
If 10% per year of these populations (condor and turkey vulture) were dying of lead poisoning that would mean there would be 500,000 turkey vultures laying all over the landscape...don’t you think maybe people would be finding a few of these?
I remember, not too long ago, there was a documentary on TV about the Grand Canyon. In one segment they interviewed, and went out in the field with, a biologist studying condors in the G.C. area. He went on and on about how the evil hunters were killing all the condors by leaving their lead laced gut piles all over the place. Well, happened to be that they got a call regarding a dead condor nearby. All the way over to pick it up this “gentleman” is saying how he's betting it was lead poisoning and this will be another lead related death and so on. Well they get the bird back to the lab and start to examine it and come to find out the it choked to death on a quarter...that's right...a 25 cent piece. This biologist was so disappointed that it wasn't lead poisoning he could hardly stand it.
So there you have a documented case of a quarter killing a condor. Now what? Are we going to ban coins from the condor areas now?
This is the type of "expert" that people are relying on for this bogus lead ban.
One more thing. I read somewhere that in California Fish & Game (now Fish & Wildlife) were finding that 99% of hunters in the lead ban area were in compliance with the lead ban. Believe it or not the source for this report was the Center for Biological Diversity, the folks probably most responsible for the “condor area” lead ban. Don't believe me? Look for yourself.
http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2009/condor-lead-02-10-2009.html
So, if hunters have been in 99% compliance with the lead ban which has been in effect for 5+ years then where are these condors getting their lead? Maybe some of these environmentalists are lacing carcasses with lead? (Nah, they wouldn't do that would they....) Or, maybe, these condors like picking through the mine tailing piles at some of the thousands of old abandoned mines in the condor areas? Just a little more to think about. By this groups own admission hunters are complying with the lead ban and it, apparently isn't helping. The only conclusion I can come to is that hunters are not the source of this (alleged) lead.
No one in their right mind thinks that lead isn't toxic.
Now, the real question is, if condors are getting lead from hunter's bullets then how or where are they STILL getting it if hunters are 99% in compliance with the lead ban?
If you reduce the alleged source of the lead by 99% and the condors are still be poisoned at about the same rate then we obviously have not removed the source of their lead.
This thereby proves that hunters are NOT the source of this lead that the condors are allegedly ingesting.
My bullets are about as likely to poison a condor as my fishing sinkers that are sitting in my garage.
Let's again do a little thinking with our brains instead of the left liberal method of thinking with our "heart". In 2006 in California's A zone deer area there were 33,160 tags issued. The south half of A zone covers approximately 1/2 of the condor area in the state. If you figure 2/3 of the hunters hunted in the south half of A zone (the half in the condor area) that would give you 22,107 hunters in that area. Of the total number of hunters 9.5% were successful at harvesting a deer or 3,159 deer for the entire A zone area. Take 2/3 of that number, (since we're taking out the north end of the zone that's not in the condor area) and that gives you 2,106 deer harvested. (Although that number would probably be high as the north half of A zone is usually better hunting then the south end). If 10% of those were taken with a bow and arrow then that removes 211 deer from having potential lead in them, which takes the number of deer harvested down to 2,085. If each of those deer were taken with a 150 grain bullet AND the entire bullet stayed inside the deer's gut area to be available for the condors to eat (extremely unlikely as most of these small costal deer (100 - 150 pounds) suffer pass-through wounds) that would leave a potential 312750 grains of lead for the condors to pick out of the gut piles. As you probably know there are 7000 grains in a pound. This would give you a whopping 44.67 pounds of lead spread out through an area from Ventura to San Francisco and from the middle of the central valley to the coast, an area approximately 300 miles x 200 miles. Now, if you realistically figure 20% of that lead is left inside the deers' gut piles that leaves you 8.93 pounds of lead in that same area. Now, your telling me 9 pounds of lead spread out over 60,000 square miles is poisoning the condors? Really? Give me a break.
I have seen quotes by "experts" that the source of lead poisoning condors was "likely" hunter's bullets...
This is exactly the type of bogus science that they're putting out there to get the ban. Can you imagine this type of evidence in a court for lets say a murder trial....
Defense Attorney - "So, you say these victims died of lead poisoning?"
"Expert" witness (aka - environmentalist "scientist") - "Yes."
DA - "And the source of that lead is...?"
EW - "We don't know for sure."
DA - "And of the 39 other deaths that weren't attributed to lead, what did they die from?"
EW - "Different things but a lot of them we couldn't tell so we decided to blame lead from hunter's bullets for those too."
DA - "Why?"
EW - "Because it was easy to blame something as unpopular as hunting."
DA - "So, how many of these victims have died of lead poisoning?"
EW - "We don't know but I'm betting at least half of them did."
DA - "Do you have any proof of this?"
EW - "No. But I know it in my heart."
DA - "Then how can you say that?"
EW - "Because we had to come up with something and it was easy to blame lead and hunter's bullets."
Ah, yeah....that would hold up in court....
If one does a little research you’d find out that most of the condors that are dying are succumbing to "micro-trash". This is documented on the condor-huggers web sites and blogs. Here’s a quote from a hunter that did a little research.
“They (condors) eat anything. Apparently they are attracted to shiny objects, cause they keep eating METAL!!! Hello?
I did some research on these birds (reading the condor lovers own info) and they are not well adjusted to modern times. To say these birds are dieing because of hunters is like saying a drug addict isn’t responsible for taking drugs. The condor recovery people have "CLEAN UP DAYS" in the LPNF (Los Padres National Forest) in order to collect small bits of metal so the stupid condors don't end up eating it. I am serious, this info is on the web. But all we hear about is the EVIL hunter's LEAD and how dangerous lead bullets are. This is HYPE!!! 100%
The Bottom Line:
These birds have an unnatural genetic drive to consume METAL. Period! How then is anyone responsible for their actions, but them alone?”
Eating trash & "Clean up days" links:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?ui...85&topic=12032
http://bsatroop303scv.com/index.php?...view&ANN_id=29
http://lpfw.org/eventsarchives.htm
http://lpfw.org/news/0801microtrash.htm
http://www.habitatwork.org/condor.htm
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/junk-food
“...Everything from metal springs and glass fragments to bits of electrical wiring and cloth has been found in the crops and gizzards of the deceased chicks, as well as in condor nests. The body of one nestling contained a veritable trash pile: 30 metal items, 54 glass, 28 pieces of plastic and 2 miscellaneous items—a total of 200.5 grams of junk. Another contained 193.5 grams, and several others held 60 grams or more...”
This list is not exhaustive. I don't have enough time to finish it. There is a LOT of research on these prehistoric animals.”
http://www.fws.gov/hoppermountain/images/RP9558%20Condor%20xray%202%20Sml250.jpg
“X-ray of condor chicks gizzard with bottle caps, shards of glass and metal objects.”
http://www.lpfw.org/archive/news/radiograph%20of%20microtrash%20in%20chick.JPG
“A radiograph showing microtrash ingested by a condor.
Photo courtesy USFWS.”
http://www.lpfw.org/archive/news/microtrash%20removed%20from%20chick.JPG
“Stomach contents of a California condor. Photo courtesy USFWS.”
