Retrieving Birds...

[QuackerSmacker]

Hello once again everyone. A few months back I posted a topic asking about local trainers in the area as I wasn't sure I was dedicating enough time to my *cough cough* Chocolate *cough* Lab ;-). I ended up following the sage counsel of Aeon, as well as a couple other patrons, and purchased Fowl Dawgs Vol. 1 and 2. Well, Charlie the Chocolate Lab is now 1 year old and after having followed Vol. 1 of Fowl Dawgs very closely, he is a pretty good boy and I am (for the most part) excited about our future... There is one little thing... He never really caught on with the Force Fetching. I know the intention of Force Fetching is to make the dog understand that he is to retrieve an item when he is sent, whether he likes it or not, no matter what the item is (I think that's the purpose of Force Fetch at least). I would do the whole ear pinch deal during our training and tell him to fetch a bumper that I was holding. In the video it says that when the dog yelps, place the bumper in his mouth and reinforce the "fetch" command. Well Charlie would just look at me as if to say "WTF man???" when I'd pinch his ear. So I'd pinch harder. Still nothing so then I pinched it against the buckle on his collar... nothing. I would do this repeatedly until my finger actually started to hurt! I would try to execute between 6 and 10 repetitions at least once a day for 2-3 weeks and he never ever got it. I would work it and work it and then try something different like put it on the ground and try to get him to pick it up.. Nothing. Long story short, we moved on. Charlie will retrieve bumpers ALL DAY LONG when they are thrown and we're working (not on Force Fetch). Marked retrieves, blind retrieves (we're starting), you name it. Well I decided to substitute a frozen pheasant for a bumper during one of our recent training sessions and he wouldn't touch it! He'd just sniff the bird and then come trotting back. I was at a loss for words. I put the bird away and thought, "well maybe he's just tired, we'll try again tomorrow". Well I've now tried it 4 different times and he is just plain uninterested. I've taken him out to Four Winds before and shot chukar over him and he was bird crazy. A little slow on the retrieve (I used a check cord) but he loved having those birds in his mouth. I've thrown bumpers with wings zip-tied to them, no problems at all. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can work with him on this???

 

[uplandfam]

You said frozen was the bird cold? Also how old I the bird? I've been told by trainers not to use a bird that is too old after freezing. My understanding on retrieve or tracking of a downed bird is the smell of the blood. (That's how a pointer know the difference between a live bird to point and a dead or wounded bird for the retrieve) So if the blood is old frozen or cold it's not going to work? Try a fresh dead pigeon maybe? From what I understand we shoul always try and use te freshest birds we am when retrieving or tracking. Also dogs don't like cold birds in there mouth.

I'm sure someone else knows more then me on here

 

[ilovesprig]

I was going to mention the frozen bird.......My dogs retrieve anything I throw now. But when the pup was younger, he was a little hesitate on frozen birds......I'd go smaller (chukar, teal), not frozen, and see how he reacts......2 cents

 

[Snake Charmer]

Force fetch training is something to be used in the initial part of retriever training to train and teach the dog that there is not a choice and they must take the item in their mouth. The idea is when you pinch the ear that they will scream and that is the moment that you shove the item in their mouth. If the dog wont scream as it appears yours wouldn't use the buckle of the collar or a bottle cap and if they are really tough fold the ear back and strap a shock collar on it. We always start with small dowels and work our way up to larger items and finish it with dead birds. Most dogs don't like feathers in their mouth and that is why you start with dowels and bumpers to get them conditioned to taking up objects. The pinching is to get them to open their mouth so that you can shove the dowel into their mouth, when successful it should be accompanied with praise each time. The dowel should be held close to the mouth to begin with and moved further away and eventually placed on the ground as the dog gets better at taking the item. If I am successful three consecutive times in a session I stop as you always want to end on success. Always end on a positive note. Try using fresh dead birds that may help, I don't think old blood or cold birds has much to do with it, force fetch is to condition the dog to do what it is commanded to do regardless of the item being commanded to fetch. I would take step back and set yourself up with several different diameter items and at each session start with the small stuff and work on up to the larger items, leave birds out of the equation until you have success with dummies then go to birds. I would use fresh dead pigeons to start. Pm me your phone # and I'd be glad to go into greater detail about how to get this done

 

[stikbrandon]

Force fetch training is something to be used in the initial part of retriever training to train and teach the dog that there is not a choice and they must take the item in their mouth. The idea is when you pinch the ear that they will scream and that is the moment that you shove the item in their mouth. If the dog wont scream as it appears yours wouldn't use the buckle of the collar or a bottle cap and if they are really tough fold the ear back and strap a shock collar on it. We always start with small dowels and work our way up to larger items and finish it with dead birds. Most dogs don't like feathers in their mouth and that is why you start with dowels and bumpers to get them conditioned to taking up objects. The pinching is to get them to open their mouth so that you can shove the dowel into their mouth, when successful it should be accompanied with praise each time. The dowel should be held close to the mouth to begin with and moved further away and eventually placed on the ground as the dog gets better at taking the item. If I am successful three consecutive times in a session I stop as you always want to end on success. Always end on a positive note. Try using fresh dead birds that may help, I don't think old blood or cold birds has much to do with it, force fetch is to condition the dog to do what it is commanded to do regardless of the item being commanded to fetch. I would take step back and set yourself up with several different diameter items and at each session start with the small stuff and work on up to the larger items, leave birds out of the equation until you have success with dummies then go to birds. I would use fresh dead pigeons to start. Pm me your phone # and I'd be glad to go into greater detail about how to get this done

Snake charmer knows what's up bro listen to him

 

[NBK]

Force fetch training is something to be used in the initial part of retriever training to train and teach the dog that there is not a choice and they must take the item in their mouth. The idea is when you pinch the ear that they will scream and that is the moment that you shove the item in their mouth. If the dog wont scream as it appears yours wouldn't use the buckle of the collar or a bottle cap and if they are really tough fold the ear back and strap a shock collar on it. We always start with small dowels and work our way up to larger items and finish it with dead birds. Most dogs don't like feathers in their mouth and that is why you start with dowels and bumpers to get them conditioned to taking up objects. The pinching is to get them to open their mouth so that you can shove the dowel into their mouth, when successful it should be accompanied with praise each time. The dowel should be held close to the mouth to begin with and moved further away and eventually placed on the ground as the dog gets better at taking the item. If I am successful three consecutive times in a session I stop as you always want to end on success. Always end on a positive note. Try using fresh dead birds that may help, I don't think old blood or cold birds has much to do with it, force fetch is to condition the dog to do what it is commanded to do regardless of the item being commanded to fetch. I would take step back and set yourself up with several different diameter items and at each session start with the small stuff and work on up to the larger items, leave birds out of the equation until you have success with dummies then go to birds. I would use fresh dead pigeons to start. Pm me your phone # and I'd be glad to go into greater detail about how to get this done

Snake charmer knows what's up bro listen to him

Indeed - Fred is a professional. You should take him up on the one on one consultation he has so graciously offered. He knows a thing or two about dog training...

 

[El Matavenados]

Just another opinion from a non-pro, whose opinion is worth less than what you paid for it.

How's the dog doing with the "hold" command? If your training program did not start with "hold", and progress to fetch, I would recommend that you teach it first. Take a look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQx7uB_aGxI

Whether you agree with Graham's methods or not, he shows that you can teach hold without using ear pressure. You can save that for the actual "fetch" command. If you teach "hold" first, the dog will already know that the bumper or paint roller or dowel or whatever is an object he's supposed to put in his mouth. And if you teach "hold" first, you will have already dealt with most of the mouthing issues. If you don't know how to introduce "hold", check out Graham's, Farmer/Aycock's (my preferred), or Lardy's material (PM me for more info). The programs of these folks were all derived from the training style popularized by Rex Carr. This style is now used by the majority of successful retriever trainers- because it WORKS! And their methods work on a variety of dog temperaments as well. I'm assuming that Fowl Dogs incorporates much of Carr's methods, too.

From what I understand, most dogs pick up "hold" and proper mouth manners in a couple weeks (or less) if you train on it for about 10 minutes, twice a day. My dog took a month! I was despairing of what to do. But then I discovered that using taps on the rump with a stick (heeling stick, switch, rod, whatever) communicated to my pup much better than thumping him under the chin or on top of the muzzle. Once I discovered that, we were done in a week. Force fetch was an absolute breeze, using light pressure, and working up to heavier pressure, and then through the various phases.

As for frozen birds, I know a special little Boykin Spaniel who, as a pup, was a dynamo in the pheasant fields. But at training days, he didn't want to touch dead ones! I think we figured out that what he didn't like was birds that had been picked up by other dogs! Sometimes, you must apply the process of elimination to figure out a problem. However, taking your dog all the way through force fetch, from start to finish, might be just the ticket. There are exceptions though- that little Boykin is one stubborn little...

Don't give up! Do whatever it takes to get your pup over the hump. If that means getting professional help, then I'm all for it.