Fish and Code section 2003 ! Do you really understand what is going on?

[wheels]

Please read this code and study it.

This code is a HUGE topic of conversation at the Fish and Game commission meeting. This code is in the front and center of everything, because of the Coyote Contest Hunting. Yes changing this section of the code will stop coyote contests. You see the Anti's are trying to stop coyote contests but really they are trying to stop every contest.

They have asked and suggested that sub section (D) be removed.

Well if this happens, all contest hunting is done. The Big Buck contest on this website will be over. It might even have ill effects on the Boone and Crockett.

You see this is only the start people. So you can sit back and watch it happen or you can get involved. It's your choice


2003. (a) Except as specified in subdivisions (b), (c), and (d), it
is unlawful to offer any prize or other inducement as a reward for
the taking of any game birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians
in an individual contest, tournament, or derby.
(b) The department may issue a permit to any person authorizing
that person to offer a prize or other inducement as a reward for the
taking of any game fish, as defined by the commission by regulation,
if it finds that there would be no detriment to the resource. The
permit is subject to regulations adopted by the commission. The
application for the permit shall be accompanied by a fee in the
amount determined by the department as necessary to cover the
reasonable administrative costs incurred by the department in issuing
the permit. However, the department may waive the permit fee if the
contest, tournament, or derby is for persons under the age of 16
years, or who are physically or mentally challenged, the primary
purpose of the contest, tournament, or derby is to introduce young
anglers to, or educate them about fishing. All permits for which the
fee is waived pursuant to this subdivision shall comply with all
other requirements set forth in this section.
(c) This section does not apply to any person conducting what are
generally known as frog-jumping contests or fish contests conducted
in waters of the Pacific Ocean.
(d) This section does not apply to any person conducting an
individual contest, tournament, or derby for the taking of game birds
and mammals, if the total value of all prizes or other inducements
is less than five hundred dollars ($500) for the individual contest,
tournament, or derby.

 

[Bonejour]

Thanks Wheels. I have two questions. First, this law specifically relates to "game birds and animals." How are coyotes affected (non-game, or furbearers)? I see how the biggest buck tournament would be affected, but not coyotes.
Second, the language of item d suggests that dfg wisely does not want to track down small time activities. Do you know how that original language came about? Why is there a distinction between over and under $500? Were they targeting bounty-taking or trafficking in trophies of some type?


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[wheels]

Thanks Wheels. I have two questions. First, this law specifically relates to "game birds and animals." How are coyotes affected (non-game, or furbearers)? I see how the biggest buck tournament would be affected, but not coyotes.
Second, the language of item d suggests that dfg wisely does not want to track down small time activities. Do you know how that original language came about? Why is there a distinction between over and under $500? Were they targeting bounty-taking or trafficking in trophies of some type?


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I will try to answer these questions from my fireman's point of view

How are coyotes affected in this you ask? That is because they are a Mammal it is unlawful to offer any prize or other inducement as a reward for the taking of any game birds, mammals, fish, reptiles, or amphibians in an individual contest, tournament, or derby.


I don't see where you read they don't want to track down small time activities. This is a code that is something like 50 plus year old from what I understand. So that is part of the issue and why they are going through these codes. They feel some of them are out dated. I would say "Out Dated" is in the eye of the beholder

 

[Bonejour]

Got it as to the first question. As to the second, the existing "outdated" statute excludes contests involving less than $500. I interpret that to meN they are not interested in smaller arrangements. Think of it in terms of their budget: does it make sense to track down every club that wants to compete for a t shirt? I'm just saying that old-time common sense disregard for harmless friendly competition still makes sense, and could provide a counter argument to the antis.
One other thought: where do the ranchers and farmers stand on this? They have a bigger financial stake in this than anyone else. They could be an influential ally.


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[wheels]

Good thoughts.

Let me speak for the Anti's and give you what I feel they want. They want no competition for any take of animal. If that means hunting for a t-shirt or a truck. This is why they have requested to remove Sub Section (D)

I would think some of these small type of hunts wouldn't matter to them. But that is me a hunter thinking that. I know what matters to them, is for No Blood to be shed and for us to live in harmony. Now we would say how does that happen if you can't hunt. Harmony won't happen if we can't manage. This is why we have to back things up with science and facts. We also must push them to bad up what they are saying with Science and Facts. Not base things on emotions which the HSUS and Project coyote are great at doing. That make people come out in numbers to speak against the things you and I enjoy.

The Rancher and Farmers are represented by the Farmer Bureau and that person name is Noelle Creamers and she is awesome and very smart. She is a professional and speaks very well. She is on our side and is extremely involved with this process and is paid to be at every meeting and to be very involved. So they meaning the farmers and agriculture are involved and what they want is to be able to protect their livestock and agriculture. She is also involved in the Gray Wolf petition which is new to Californian since the report of OR7 coming (which is name of the one wolf from Oregon) into California over the last few years. OR7 is currently back in Oregon.


Hope I answered your ?????

 

[Bonejour]

Thanks Wheels. I understand better. Understanding HSUS's strategy, the needs of farmers, and also DFG's interests and constraints, can only help in crafting the opposing argument.


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[longbowhunter2]

what needs to happen in my brain is this.
#1) petitions from all the local farmers & ranchers, & all hunters needs to be signed. against this code change.
reason: I am certain they are in no way for this change. & by obtaining their respective signatures would prove this

#2) we must push for the DFW (department of Fish & wildlife) do do Impact studies of coyote numbers.
this will also delay any code being changed until the impact study has been completed.
These studies could back fire, but it also may disprove what the anti hunters pushing for.

#3) who's going to volunteer?
I believe it should be some of you hard core predator hunters.


see this reply from a DFW biologist

I’m unaware of any significant issue with fawn predation by coyotes in the San Diego deer herd. Deer numbers and recruitment of fawns into the population are driven more by habitat conditions and carrying capacity than predation. However, predators do play a role in fawn survivorship but the bottom line is that fawns cannot be recruited into a population if habitat and resource conditions are not sufficient to allow them to do so. Really, population growth in deer (as well as bighorn sheep and elk) has more to do with adult female survivorship and health than that of fawns. Locally there are no statistics regarding loss of fawns to predation.
Deer numbers in the San Felipe Valley area are presently good. However, as is the case for the entire east side of the Peninsular Mountains deer densities tend to be lower than that on the west side and more variable to population fluctuations. Due to a combination factors, namely being that San Felipe Valley supports a pretty diverse assemblage of habitats and has year round water sources deer numbers and density tend to be a bit higher than areas to the north and south along the eastern slopes.
If you have further questions please let me know.

 

[wheels]

what needs to happen in my brain is this.
#1) petitions from all the local farmers & ranchers, & all hunters needs to be signed. against this code change.
reason: I am certain they are in no way for this change. & by obtaining their respective signatures would prove this

#2) we must push for the DFW (department of Fish & wildlife) do do Impact studies of coyote numbers.
this will also delay any code being changed until the impact study has been completed.
These studies could back fire, but it also may disprove what the anti hunters pushing for.

#3) who's going to volunteer?
I believe it should be some of you hard core predator hunters.


see this reply from a DFW biologist

I’m unaware of any significant issue with fawn predation by coyotes in the San Diego deer herd. Deer numbers and recruitment of fawns into the population are driven more by habitat conditions and carrying capacity than predation. However, predators do play a role in fawn survivorship but the bottom line is that fawns cannot be recruited into a population if habitat and resource conditions are not sufficient to allow them to do so. Really, population growth in deer (as well as bighorn sheep and elk) has more to do with adult female survivorship and health than that of fawns. Locally there are no statistics regarding loss of fawns to predation.
Deer numbers in the San Felipe Valley area are presently good. However, as is the case for the entire east side of the Peninsular Mountains deer densities tend to be lower than that on the west side and more variable to population fluctuations. Due to a combination factors, namely being that San Felipe Valley supports a pretty diverse assemblage of habitats and has year round water sources deer numbers and density tend to be a bit higher than areas to the north and south along the eastern slopes.
If you have further questions please let me know.

I am not saying a petition wouldn't be good but I think we need to push them to do some hard studies on the predator population. We can't make decisions on emotions which is what HSUS and Project Coyote are good at getting people involved by. They get people emotional about this subject and they come in numbers to the commission meetings complaining about these issues.

Now let not just focus on this one Code I have put up. Lets remember there is 15 code being gone through and another 15 under Title 14. That is a total of 30 different area of the predator policy and other policies that are bring work on currently. A petition would be good but we must not just focus on it alone.


Now what the biologist said is true and I know that person pretty well. There might not be an issue of deer in numbers being taken by coyotes or other predators. But we must make these decisions by sounds studies that are not bias to one side.

 

[BuckHunter]

I have done my own study. 6 years, 10 game cameras, and 100s of hours in the field in one small valley in SD . In the area I bowhunt I have never seen a fawn in 6 years. Never......... I get a few pictures early in the spring of spotted fawns but by July the doe's are all alone. The coyotes are in there thick running in packs of 3-5. Bobcats too. Saw 4 last year and 3 the year before. Saw a bobcat chase a doe, then saw the doe turn and chase the cat up a tree. That was scouting in early spring when the predators are just following behind the doe waiting for the fawns to drop.

Its a non-gun area so they have gone unchecked for a long time and the fawns are paying for it with their lives.




The anti, internet trolls like to read our posts here and other sites. They even sign up to see the pictures. They get fired up over contests and posted kill numbers just like we get fired up over the coyotes killing the fawn video. Unfortunately the internet is not our friend in this fight.

 

[longbowhunter2]

Buck Hunter

Thanks for the excellent feedback
I believe you. it's a losing battle. I suspect the politician have their mind set.
& it makes sense as you said. but putting pictures on the net & with contest is not helping us.
this is the kind of ammunition that is blowing up in our faces. my 2 cents

 

[Snake Charmer]

I have to agree with Buckhunter and LBH2, Remember when the open carry law was flaunted a few years ago by gun rights activists ? remember what happened ? Its great to have forum like this to connect with other like minded folks but we're doing ourselves harm with some of the conversations and photos that get posted. While what is being posted is legal remember we are a minority in a state filled with an uninformed populous that don't understand or care about the science of animal management and activists that have an agenda and use people's emotions to get laws changed.

 

[El Matavenados]

What I see in it is that fishing tournaments would also be affected. You are right- we need to weigh in on ALL of the items. They specified that we need to indicate what we think needs to change, and what needs to remain the same, and why we feel that way.

Please do not skip over the items that may not apply to your interests- think about the interests of EVERYBODY in the state.

I mentioned it to Wheels in an email, but I'll state it here as well. Don't be content with the status quo. Push for expanded hunting opportunities. If you see an area where opportunity can be expanded (by way of youth hunts, disabled veteran hunts, DFW-sponsored special hunts etc.), propose it!

We have a long way to go. I saw some links on another site that are very disturbing:
http://www.kcet.org/...nimals-too.html
"As Fish and Game Commission president Mike Sutton pointed out during the panel, California's wildlife face other threats in addition to poaching. In some cases, said Sutton, actual legal hunting or harvesting of wildlife may cause greater overall problems. "I actually believe legal hunting that's not sustainable may be a more pervasive problem in California," said Sutton."

So legal hunting is more of a problem than poaching????

How about this:
http://www.flashrepo...ct-of-interest/

If the problem Sutton is referring to is the hunting of squirrels and coyotes and jackrabbits and skunks and other nongame animals or fish without season or bag limits, then we better get busy boys! That doesn't mean sit back and let the organizations that represent you speak for you. You need to make your voices heard!

 

[Aeon]

we're doing ourselves harm with some of the conversations and photos that get posted

SC could you point out the threads you feel are doing harm?

Wheels your Biologist friend was talking in a circle here he says that fawns vs yotes is not a problem then says he has no clue if all the fawns are getting chewed on. Locally there are no statistics regarding loss of fawns to predation.

 

[longbowhunter2]

exactly true. thats why we have to push for DFW test. it's all hearsay. although I commend Buck Hunter, & his voice would be heard.
it will go to deaf ears. They will try to Ignore us. The weight shifted to no statistical data to his own experience.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Groups-seek-to-stop-Oregon-coyote-killing-contest-240612411.html

 

[longbowhunter2]

here is a very damaging photo

https://www.change.org/petitions/mark-chavez-at-gunhawk-firearms-stop-december-coyote-killing-contest-by-gunhawk-firearms-3

 

[Snake Charmer]

Aeon, I don't point fingers, pass judgement or place blame for what others do on this forum, every individual needs to use their own best judgement as to whether or not what they are about to show and tell the world about is in their own and other like minded folks best interest. I commented on this because others that are opposed to any type of hunting can use what is posted to our detriment.

 

[Matagi]

Never really realized that about posting photos. But its definitely true that posting photos on social media can be viewed by anyone and can be used against us in a negative way. Perfect example in point would be Former DFG commissioner Dan Richards. If WON never got ahold of the his cougar kill photo, it may not have turned out the way it did for him. Although the anti's were looking for any reason they could to try and get him ousted.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter to DFG anymore if they lose money from license sale because they get a lot of federal funding and funding from private donors like HSUS, Audubon, and private anti hunting citizens. The two things hurting our cause the most is two things: money and fellow hunters. Money because we are a minority and cant raise enough money to match the larger anti hunting contributors. and the scary part for me is other hunters, many of our fellow hunters actually were in favor of SB1221 because they thought if we give the HSUS something, they would leave us alone.

I'm sure there are many other reasons but these two issues are our major road block. There's a reason why DFG turned down a donation from groups like COHS (no longer active) and Sportsmen's Alliance in return they cut ties from HSUS.

 

[Sdbirds]

we're doing ourselves harm with some of the conversations and photos that get posted

SC could you point out the threads you feel are doing harm?


I may have poasted some ridiculous things. It's only for a laugh.... Should I tone it down? Ur guys call

 

[wheels]

Great comments,


It is important to have these conversations. Yes piles of coyotes are extremely damaging. HSUS would say you are hurting our ecosystems by taking such huge numbers in one day or weekend. I might say in these areas they have a number of issues with predators taking down calves. Sheep being preyed upon and killed by predators. We might even be able to say that the deer heard is being hurt by predators. All of these three areas the animals are being brought up in a natural environment. The Farming community is doing their best to bring the animals up in a natural environment to bring food and crops to the community, nation and world. The predators are preying on these animals and the farmers will protect their lively hood.

They coyotes are taken in large numbers every year on that date and the HSUS say it hurts the ecosystem but still every year they get the same pile of coyotes which seem to hurt the ecosystems shows up and they don't seem to be hurting in numbers.


Well we must push them to make judgment of sounds studies. Maybe we need to push for a predator management study. We need good facts so that the HSUS and Project Coyote can't just use emotion to get things done on their agenda. Sounds facts that aren't bias to one side or another.

We have to remember that yes I do feel picture hurt us. I have ton of coyotes pictures that I know don't do any justice to help this cause. One things we can do when we take picture is make sure they don't show blood and make sure the pictures are in good taste. HSUS will never see it in good taste but this is one way to help. Everyone has their own thoughts on this but you can count on the HSUS and Project Coyote having ONE voice and being very united. They have a national plan in place and they are working in multiple areas to make sure it continues to grow and they are by all means working on getting the backing.

 

[sluester]

Unbelievable.