Is it acceptable / ethical .......

[Drewski2324]

I have a 1944 Remington(Springfield) 1903-A3 in 30-06. At some point in the 1970's had been sporterized. I recently upgraded the stock to a Boyd's laminated stock and bedded it. The problem I face is I cannot get that gun to shoot worth a darn. My average 5 shot group at 100 yds size is around 3" all were between 2"-4.5". (shot 4"+ groups before stock change, old one was split down the middle). Wind for all of my group was between 5-10mph.

How I shoot & my abilities: Bench Rest on bi-pod. 5 shot groups will take me around 5 min or so. Then I let it cool before next group. (Maybe I should slow down to one shot and let cool to more accurately represent a first shot in a hunting scenario?) While I let the 30-06 cool I usually shoot my Rem 700 in .223 and I average around 1 moa in the same conditions. I'm no sniper by any means but I am not a novice either.

The gun: 1944 Remington(Springfield) 1903-A3 in 30-06. 20" pencil thin barrel. Twist rate and barrel brand unknown. Trigger is stock. Scope is Vortex Diamond Back 3-12x. New Boyd's Stock and it is bedded.

Ammo: I have put 6 boxes of different types of ammo through it in the last month alone. From expensive like Federal Premium, Hornady & Nosler Match and cheap stuff like Winchester XP and Remington Core Lokt. I do not currently reload. All ammo was between 165gr-180gr.

My question is: Is it acceptable/ethical to hunt with this rifle? At 200+yds the rifle will be 6"The rifle is very sentimental and my goal is to make it my primary medium game rifle. I would like to use this gun out to 600yds.

Future plans:
New Timney trigger
Milled bottom metal- Already ordered
Maybe have it re-barreled and accurized. I really want to keep the gun close to how it was given to me but I also want a shooter.

 

[ilovesprig]

Drew,

This is a tough call and I'm no rifle expert......I've really only shot 2 BG rifles all my life, my dad's Rem Mod 721, in .270 (bought in 1949) and my Winchester Mod 70, 30-06.....The .270 still shoots straight as a string and the only improvement has been the scopes over the years.....The point being the age of the rifle shouldn't be an issue, but maybe the make is.

My only suggestion, if you really want to hunt with it would be, know where it shoots on that 1st shot and shoot 'em close (under 200 yds.).....I think shooting out to 600 yds with this gun might be asking it to do more than you should......2 cents

 

[Aeon]

Let your groups be your guide, if you can keep every shot on a paper plate then that range is good to go. A new barrel would help but why mess with it. The vintage barrel is part of the love.

A 4" group at 100 does not equal 8 at 200 and 12 at 300. As distance increases groups open up both due to shooters error and environmental factors. To take game at 600yards you need to be sub moa at 100 and have purfect form and wind reading. It's something we all should strive for and practice.

 

[MJB]

Try the final finish it will polish the barrel and will tighten your groups. It will also have the same poi clean or fouled barrel.

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-loaded-ammo

I'm sure you know that grains, brand of bullets & different manufactures will change your poi

 

[Drewski2324]

Try the final finish it will polish the barrel and will tighten your groups. It will also have the same poi clean or fouled barrel.

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-loaded-ammo

I'm sure you know that grains, brand of bullets & different manufactures will change your poi

Wow that is a really cool concept. Is this something you use? Unfortunately they do not have the 30-06 pre built but I am going to see if I can find someone who reloads to build them for me.

 

[Drewski2324]

Drew,

This is a tough call and I'm no rifle expert......I've really only shot 2 BG rifles all my life, my dad's Rem Mod 721, in .270 (bought in 1949) and my Winchester Mod 70, 30-06.....The .270 still shoots straight as a string and the only improvement has been the scopes over the years.....The point being the age of the rifle shouldn't be an issue, but maybe the make is.

My only suggestion, if you really want to hunt with it would be, know where it shoots on that 1st shot and shoot 'em close (under 200 yds.).....I think shooting out to 600 yds with this gun might be asking it to do more than you should......2 cents

I probably should not have educated myself. The more I read the worse my rifles appear. Before educating myself I never missed an animal with that gun. Now I wonder how I ever hit anything at all! Its all in my head. I will the the final finish that MJB spoke of but I think I just need to come to terms that it is a shorter range weapon than I would have hoped for.

 

[MJB]

They should have loaded FF for 06

Best thing to do is call them tell them what rifle you have and take their recommendations

I've used it on my 270, 06 & 204

 

[Fowl Play]

I probably should not have educated myself. The more I read the worse my rifles appear. Before educating myself I never missed an animal with that gun. Now I wonder how I ever hit anything at all! Its all in my head. I will the the final finish that MJB spoke of but I think I just need to come to terms that it is a shorter range weapon than I would have hoped for.

Always need to know the capabilities of your equipment, so good on you for that. What does the crown of the barrel look like? My pre' 64 winchester mod 70 .270 is a 300yrd gun MAX because it has a pretty beat up crown (previous owner apparently cleaned it often and drug the cleaning rod along the crown). Anyways I took it to a gunsmith to see if I could get the accuracy back up and re-crowning the barrel was one thing he mentioned (but advised against due to the age). I never did that work as I didn't want to mess with the rifle, so have just kept all my shots under 300yrds. Haven't ran into a situation yet that needed a further shot than that.

 

[brad nsw]

I shot an old WWII sporterized 8mm Mauser for deer since the 1970's when I was a teenager. 2012-2014 it was shooting 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards. I set my limit for deer at 250 and had one shot kills at: 215, 225 and 225, from a solid rock bench rest here in D16.

Last year I was going up elk hunting in WA so I invested in a model 700 reminton in 7mm Magnum and put a good scope on it. Now I'm confident out to 400 and even 500 on a calm day with a solid rest, for elk. 2015 deer was a cake walk at 250 with the new gun.

Sounds like you are probably good to 200 ONLY, with a totally solid rest and little wind.

 

[Drewski2324]

I shot an old WWII sporterized 8mm Mauser for deer since the 1970's when I was a teenager. 2012-2014 it was shooting 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards. I set my limit for deer at 250 and had one shot kills at: 215, 225 and 225, from a solid rock bench rest here in D16.

Last year I was going up elk hunting in WA so I invested in a model 700 reminton in 7mm Magnum and put a good scope on it. Now I'm confident out to 400 and even 500 on a calm day with a solid rest, for elk. 2015 deer was a cake walk at 250 with the new gun.

Sounds like you are probably good to 200 ONLY, with a totally solid rest and little wind.

If I could somehow push this gun to 400yds I think I will be happy. I took MJB's advise and ordered the Final Finish products and I put a new trigger on it. Although I have not had a chance to take it to the range the trigger has made a huge difference. The old trigger had a 16" pull broke at 57lbs(these are my approximations of course). All kidding aside the new trigger is a Timmney and breaks crisp at an advertised 3.5lbs. Worlds apart from the stock trigger. I am going to do some test groups with the new trigger before I try the 50 rounds of Final Finish.

Brad, The crown looks like it is in good shape. Before me, my Dad really only shot a couple rounds a year with this gun and rarely cleaned it.

 

[brad nsw]

If noone has given it a good cleaning, get some copper solvent. Let it sit in the barrel and neck. Work it real good with a barrel and chamber brush. Repeat two or three times. You might be surprised how much copper fouling can impact accuracy. If the barrel isn't shot out , you might make it good to 300-400.

 

[Drewski2324]

I had a chance on Wed to shoot a couple groups with the new trigger. Overall it was a fantastic change. It allowed me to have much more control over my breathing and perceived flinching. I was surprised by the boom almost every time. I almost cried when I saw the first group (terrible) but the groups tightened up after the first couple.

First Two groups. Note that the top target only has one hole in it. That is because the other two were off the paper.

3rd and 4th group. Sorry little blurry. Groups are starting to tighten up.


Last two groups and best single group of the day. All groups were 100yds, groups were measured CTC.
Next week I hope to start the final finish and if it can shave even a 1/4" I will be happy.

 

[Fowl Play]

Group #5 is great. Did you make adjustments to the scope in between groups 3-4 to 5-6? If not, I'd check every fastener to make sure everything's tight.

 

[Gspman]

I'd also wonder about scope adjustments made. Even groups 3&4 are pretty consistent high and right but the groupings are good. Maybe adjustments were made that brought everything down and left too much? If not like said above check it all out.

I know some will agree and some won't but an inch or so group at 100 yards for a hunting rifle is not too bad. Just practice sitting laying standing propped against a tree a rock and when your tired early and late. Cold and hot

 

[KoozeDeer]

Just a thought my friend, how often to you clean your bore? A good copper cleaning can really help

 

[xjon]

Just a thought my friend, how often to you clean your bore? A good copper cleaning can really help

I shoot dirty....Just a thought. My rifles have minimum of 50 rds through it. Some have 200rds through it. If I'm hunting with it and have exposed it to significant moisture and dust, at most, powder cleaning is done but I won't copper clean. Of course when I see my groups enlarge after several outings I will then do a thorough cleaning.
Also I've read and believe that jumping from different brands, weights, bullets, the first few rounds are not that accurate. YMMV

 

[MJB]

I hate to say this but it looks to be the shooter not the gun. Have you put it in a sled to shoot it? That will tell you if it's you or the gun.

Dry fire several times between shots and have someone watch you I bet your pulling the trigger.

 

[Drewski2324]

Group #5 is great. Did you make adjustments to the scope in between groups 3-4 to 5-6? If not, I'd check every fastener to make sure everything's tight.

I think the difference you are seeing is me switching from 168gr to 180gr. The only time the scope or anything else was adjusted was in between groups 5 and 6. I moved the scope up four clicks and it was right on.

 

[Drewski2324]

I shoot dirty....Just a thought. My rifles have minimum of 50 rds through it. Some have 200rds through it. If I'm hunting with it and have exposed it to significant moisture and dust, at most, powder cleaning is done but I won't copper clean. Of course when I see my groups enlarge after several outings I will then do a thorough cleaning.
Also I've read and believe that jumping from different brands, weights, bullets, the first few rounds are not that accurate. YMMV

I have also heard this from friends of mine. The scientific side of my brain is screaming that I cant gauge or control the outcome. The other side of my brain is ok with it as long as groups are acceptable. So If I do not reload myself then how do I find the best rounds for my rifle if I don't try different loads and manufacturers?

 

[Drewski2324]

I hate to say this but it looks to be the shooter not the gun. Have you put it in a sled to shoot it? That will tell you if it's you or the gun.

Dry fire several times between shots and have someone watch you I bet your pulling the trigger.

I don't doubt that one bit. I have not used a sled but for the targets you see above they were all shot from a bi-pod and sandbag. I did my best to go slow and really focus on trigger pull. Unfortunately I do not have a sled to utilize yet but I'm not opposed to the idea.

I have 45 of the Final Finish rounds built and ready to go. Unfortunately the de-priming die took a dive and I was not able to get the last 5 deprimed and reformed.