Best BANG for BUCK?

[Nuevo]

I'm looking for some better educated opinions than my own here, and I know I'll probably get a few different answers.... so here's my question.

Since I don't know jack sh** about copper or any other non lead rifle ammo, I'm looking for a good middle ground round that could handle deer and elk. I don't think I would make any shots beyond 400 yds, so I think I'll keep that my max range.

The rifle is a Savage 114 classic 30.06.

What round would you go with, and what grain?

 

[Ocurtis]

I shoot barnes TTSX in 168 grain out of 30-06. Only thing I will say is try and hit bone, they are an excellent bullet as long as you hit something hard. They expand well and don’t ruin a ton of meat beyond the area of the penetration since the copper does not fragment and fly around.

If you do not hit bone, you run the risk of simply punching a hole in the animal.


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[stikbrandon]

I too run the 168gr ttsx as well

 

[Deleted member 27310]

I am also a rookie on this subject but my buddy that has been hunting lead free said the Hornady GMX 165 did well on the bucks he has harvested. So that is what I will be using in d12 this coming year.

I will keep an eye on this post to pick up some pointers.

 

[MAG 1]

I am also a rookie, but isnt 168 grain bullet a little big for are deer here in so cal???

 

[Ocurtis]

I am also a rookie, but isnt 168 grain bullet a little big for are deer here in so cal???

It’s definitely big enough, but I don’t know any negative with using it? I use it on antelope in Wyoming too. It doesn’t fragment and destroy meat. I use it because it has a very good BC, and I can use one round for anything from antelope to elk.

A 150 grain would be sufficient for all those animals too, but has a lower BC than the 168.


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[Bowman]

I am also a rookie, but isnt 168 grain bullet a little big for are deer here in so cal???

New to non lead. But my thoughts is
More kinetic energy, other words more knock down power. And 168 has good ballistics. I thinking switch back to 308.
From 243. I have taken note, Others here have had good success with Barnes 130 GN. But most reload.
Box of manufactured ammo is not cheap. Reload the it becomes affordable. Lot of good calibers out there. But 308 and 30-06 is cheap and plentiful.
And they work.

 

[Ocurtis]

New to non lead. But my thoughts is
More kinetic energy, other words more knock down power. And 168 has good ballistics. I thinking switch back to 308.
From 243. I have taken note, Others here have had good success with Barnes 130 GN. But most reload.
Box of manufactured ammo is not cheap. Reload the it becomes affordable. Lot of good calibers out there. But 308 and 30-06 is cheap and plentiful.
And they work.

I did a bunch of research on this.

Actually you can go down a size with copper because it doesn’t fragment and retains its weight. The most important thing is speed as copper needs speed to expand properly. Within 400 yards either is fine.

I originally shot 168 Barnes factory ammo at 3/4 MOA.

My brother made me a bunch of handnloads loaded above max load data before it started showing pressure signs. It’s pushing the 168 at 2950 FPS with 1/4” groups.

Last year it dropped 5 antelope and a cow elk. 3 antelope were shot in the should and they dropped in their tracks. One in the neck, also dropped in its tracks.
Cow elk shot in the shoulder, she took a step and was down.

The other antelope was a lung shot, and it took 3 shots to drop him since no bone was hit


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[Bowman]

That is my concern. As you pointed out
It's appears with non lead must hit bone. But time will take.
That said thank you for your report and experience. Valuable info.

 

[Bowman]

So pop the animal on shoulder instead of straight lung shot.

 

[Ocurtis]

So pop the animal on shoulder instead of straight lung shot.

Yep. I had a hard time accepting this fact as o don’t like to ruin meat. However, the copper does not damage outside of the actually wound channel on my experience


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[Snake Charmer]

Copper doesn't need to strike bone to be effective and expand. Some of the early stuff did not expand well but the manufacturers have gotten past that. I have seen a mountain of elk shot and copper that did not strike bone that was recovered and all of it I have seen has shown good expansion. I have also seen copper that was shot at very close range where petals broke off.

 

[Ocurtis]

Copper doesn't need to strike bone to be effective and expand. Some of the early stuff did not expand well but the manufacturers have gotten past that. I have seen a mountain of elk shot and copper that did not strike bone that was recovered and all of it I have seen has shown good expansion. I have also seen copper that was shot at very close range where petals broke off.

I’ve heard this too, it was just my real world experience that hitting bone helps


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[Bowman]

Most of the deer taken by me has been lung shots. With silver tip Winchester
150 GN . Some deer I would have to track
Up to a hundred yards or more.
Most dropped on the spot.
I don't like losing animals. So this is a good topic and important to share all
Experience, good or bad.
It's good to get reports that the manufacturers are getting better.

 

[TheGDog]

I shoot barnes TTSX in 168 grain out of 30-06. Only thing I will say is try and hit bone, they are an excellent bullet as long as you hit something hard. They expand well and don’t ruin a ton of meat beyond the area of the penetration since the copper does not fragment and fly around.

If you do not hit bone, you run the risk of simply punching a hole in the animal.


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Hrmm.... that's interesting you say that "..and don't ruin a ton of meat beyond the area of the penetration" I shot a 168gr Barnes TTSX .308 Win into my first deer at 40yds. There was like maybe a 5-inch circle of bloodshoot meat around the entry wound. The shot was a little high and back. I'm pretty sure it came in just under the spine, and that the shockwave took out the connection to the rear legs. The animal got knocked like 10 inches sideways... dropped to the ground, then kicked around with just the front legs for a while, before expiring. (I did gutless method on that one, so didn't inspect inside the animal.)

Then the next year... Federal Trophy Copper .30-30 150 grain w/ Roundnose Polymer Tip.
It was extremely hot that day so decide to gut the deer to ensure meat got cooled as much as possible.
A very angled-in shot that entered at midline of body just behind ribcage. Punched a Silver-Dollar sized hole thru the liver, completed decimated the right-hand side lung... did not exit... lodge just under the opposite scapula (shoulder-blade). Recovered that bullet and textbook mushroom. Though it did not exit, the damage was impressive considering how long of a path it took thru his body. Would you believe?... No immediate reaction to the shot! No kick up or anything like that. (Although he *was* mid-trot crossing an opening and going away from me as he noticed me raising my rifle) That mofo ran like 20yds before he finally started to lift up that opposite leg while running and continued to run out of sight for another 40yds! Was so weird how he didn't do anything to immediately indicate he'd been shot though! For a few milliseconds I was freaking, thinking to myself "No! No Way! What the Hell? There's No Way I missed that shot!" (Was only 25yds, so no way I missed it) As he ran away at first when he turned to run directly away from me and I could look down along his body and finally see the other side, I noted I saw no blood/exit wound... which further freaked me out and made me momentarily think I'd somehow missed!... but then once he started not letting that opposite foot touch the ground I was like "Phew! Ok... Yes!"

 

[Ocurtis]

Hrmm.... that's interesting you say that "..and don't ruin a ton of meat beyond the area of the penetration" I shot a 168gr Barnes TTSX .308 Win into my first deer at 40yds. There was like maybe a 5-inch circle of bloodshoot meat around the entry wound. The shot was a little high and back. I'm pretty sure it came in just under the spine, and that the shockwave took out the connection to the rear legs. The animal got knocked like 10 inches sideways... dropped to the ground, then kicked around with just the front legs for a while, before expiring. (I did gutless method on that one, so didn't inspect inside the animal.)

Then the next year... Federal Trophy Copper .30-30 150 grain w/ Roundnose Polymer Tip.
It was extremely hot that day so decide to gut the deer to ensure meat got cooled as much as possible.
A very angled-in shot that entered at midline of body just behind ribcage. Punched a Silver-Dollar sized hole thru the liver, completed decimated the right-hand side lung... did not exit... lodge just under the opposite scapula (shoulder-blade). Recovered that bullet and textbook mushroom. Though it did not exit, the damage was impressive considering how long of a path it took thru his body. Would you believe?... No immediate reaction to the shot! No kick up or anything like that. (Although he *was* mid-trot crossing an opening and going away from me as he noticed me raising my rifle) That mofo ran like 20yds before he finally started to lift up that opposite leg while running and continued to run out of sight for another 40yds! Was so weird how he didn't do anything to immediately indicate he'd been shot though! For a few milliseconds I was freaking, thinking to myself "No! No Way! What the Hell? There's No Way I missed that shot!" (Was only 25yds, so no way I missed it) As he ran away at first when he turned to run directly away from me and I could look down along his body and finally see the other side, I noted I saw no blood/exit wound... which further freaked me out and made me momentarily think I'd somehow missed!... but then once he started not letting that opposite foot touch the ground I was like "Phew! Ok... Yes!"

I wonder if yours hd shock damage due to the extremely close range? Mine were taken between 150-350 yards


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[TheGDog]

Hmph... In Nikon's Spoton app... .308 Win 168gr Barnes TTSX (B.C. .470) is listed as starting out out with 2680fps and 2679 ft/Lbs at Muzzle... at 350yd Nikon's app calculates drop to 2051fps and 1569 ft/Lbs by that distance.

Barnes sight lists this round at 2700fps. Correcting Nikon's bullet data for this... 350yds presents with 2068fps and 1595 ft/Lbs

 

[Bowman]

Did you hit bone Larry.?
Every deer I have shot with 308, 150 gn
Had a small entrance hole. Then
Would explode but would have an exit
Hole about 3-4 inches in diameter.
I always had an exit wound.
I have hit deer and dropped them on the spot.
The last deer I had shot with my longbow , 55 lb draw @ 28 inches.
Punched a small hole and shot thru
Both lungs and made an approximate
2 inch hole.
I have shot deer with 30-30, soft tip forgot gn. But would punch
Thru. Many times. Grand father's rifle.

 

[Bowman]

Check out this ballistic gel test
Federal fusion 30-30,
Blew through, and blew off the bottom.

 

[Bowman]

Federal fusion 308 150 GN ballistic gel test. Check it out.