Ultimate Accuracy or Ultra Velocity?
- Thread starter NBK
- Start date
You know I am a velocity guy. I will take an extra 100fps and 1/2moa all day.
I like to try multiple powders when developing a load. Each powder will hit its accuracy node at a different FPS if one powder gives me a substantial jump in velocity and still good accuracy that is my choice. Sometimes “Hot“ powders are not the fastest powder for me depending on where the node is. Also sometimes I will work up a bullet but it’s velocity node falls short of where I want to be so I will scrap that bullet. An example of that would be the 140ELDM in my 260 was very accurate but the velocity for that node was over 100fps slower than the 135 Atip. So I abandoned the ELDM and stuck with the ATip.
These are my beliefs for a hunting rig velocity kills at longer ranges. If I was just punching paper I would be accuracy first. But 100fps at the muzzle is huge once you really start stretching out that bullet.
I like to try multiple powders when developing a load. Each powder will hit its accuracy node at a different FPS if one powder gives me a substantial jump in velocity and still good accuracy that is my choice. Sometimes “Hot“ powders are not the fastest powder for me depending on where the node is. Also sometimes I will work up a bullet but it’s velocity node falls short of where I want to be so I will scrap that bullet. An example of that would be the 140ELDM in my 260 was very accurate but the velocity for that node was over 100fps slower than the 135 Atip. So I abandoned the ELDM and stuck with the ATip.
These are my beliefs for a hunting rig velocity kills at longer ranges. If I was just punching paper I would be accuracy first. But 100fps at the muzzle is huge once you really start stretching out that bullet.
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.270...."Queen of the mountain guns"....Kills stuff really good...Accurate, fast, and flat.
Same Rem Mod. 721, .270...41 years apart.
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Same Rem Mod. 721, .270...41 years apart.
.
Snake Charmer
Happiness is a warm gut pile
I remember a quote from one of Jack's books- "If you are going to hunt the west buy a .270"
When I was new to reloading and a young rifleman I was always chasing velocity. I thought that the flatter the bullet flew and the more energy at target; the equation was solved. With that came more pressure, more recoil, more muzzle blast and a very short lifespan on brass and barrel life, and more than adequate accuracy was always achieved. Animals fell and life was good. But was it really making the difference for me? I thought it was. Wasn't it? Shooting a 30-338, 7 Rem Mag, 300WSM and a 338WM at top end velocities - well I felt I had achieved reloading greatness.
Then there was a guy named Henry who came along. He was a man whose wisdom spilled over enough for me to glean a different perspective on reloading and the accuracy/velocity whoa. Hank said: "if you could place a bullet behind an ear or on a specific patch of hair every time would that be a substitute for your unbridled velocity". "What if your confidence was so rock solid you could make great shots with normality". For me, that was the beginning of the ultimate chase for accuracy. I soon found what I was always looking for. Satisfaction. It was missing all along.
There are many cartridges that meet the needs of the average velocity freak. Pick your poison. More powder means more velocity. Most cartridges shoot better below the max velocity threshold. So why abuse the rifle, brass and body to make a cartridge work so hard. If you want more velocity go down in bullet weight or up in powder capacity. Why settle for a 1/2" group when a 1/4" or better is possible.
I am currently building a .280 Ackley Improved. Hopefully it will be done in the next few months. I chose it for a few reasons:
I wanted an inherently accurate cartridge
I wanted a caliber that had a good bullet selection with excellent BC's and sectional density
I wanted a cartridge that didn't swallow powder by the jug
I wanted a cartridge that had less recoil and more efficiency than its magnum brothers
I wanted a standard cartridge that left tons of room in the magazine well
I wanted a gun I could carry all day but not compromise accuracy for weight
I wanted to build a dedicated rifle for monolithic bullets that could be used to hunt any game in the lower 48 states
The 7 Rem mag, 28 Nosler, 7mm RUM etc. etc. all outperform the .280 AI regarding velocity. And the latter by a long stretch, but accuracy - no way. The fact is, out to 800 yards the animals won't know the difference. It all steers back to the intangible confidence factor. Being able to look at a game animal knowing what can and can't be achieved.
In 2018, my son made a 450 yard shot on a very nice Utah buck who was hanging out in some brush. It wouldn't move so he made a shot through a window in the brush no larger than an 8" circle. It fell like a sack of rocks. We both knew it was an ethical shot. And we were both confident of the result when the trigger would be squeezed.
Beware of the sportsman who shoots a 30-06. He has never been tempted to shoot a 300WM because he has no reason. He pulls the trigger and the animals fall...
Just one guys perspective. Remember - These are my express opinions derived from my experiences - I know less than most and half as much as some!
Then there was a guy named Henry who came along. He was a man whose wisdom spilled over enough for me to glean a different perspective on reloading and the accuracy/velocity whoa. Hank said: "if you could place a bullet behind an ear or on a specific patch of hair every time would that be a substitute for your unbridled velocity". "What if your confidence was so rock solid you could make great shots with normality". For me, that was the beginning of the ultimate chase for accuracy. I soon found what I was always looking for. Satisfaction. It was missing all along.
There are many cartridges that meet the needs of the average velocity freak. Pick your poison. More powder means more velocity. Most cartridges shoot better below the max velocity threshold. So why abuse the rifle, brass and body to make a cartridge work so hard. If you want more velocity go down in bullet weight or up in powder capacity. Why settle for a 1/2" group when a 1/4" or better is possible.
I am currently building a .280 Ackley Improved. Hopefully it will be done in the next few months. I chose it for a few reasons:
I wanted an inherently accurate cartridge
I wanted a caliber that had a good bullet selection with excellent BC's and sectional density
I wanted a cartridge that didn't swallow powder by the jug
I wanted a cartridge that had less recoil and more efficiency than its magnum brothers
I wanted a standard cartridge that left tons of room in the magazine well
I wanted a gun I could carry all day but not compromise accuracy for weight
I wanted to build a dedicated rifle for monolithic bullets that could be used to hunt any game in the lower 48 states
The 7 Rem mag, 28 Nosler, 7mm RUM etc. etc. all outperform the .280 AI regarding velocity. And the latter by a long stretch, but accuracy - no way. The fact is, out to 800 yards the animals won't know the difference. It all steers back to the intangible confidence factor. Being able to look at a game animal knowing what can and can't be achieved.
In 2018, my son made a 450 yard shot on a very nice Utah buck who was hanging out in some brush. It wouldn't move so he made a shot through a window in the brush no larger than an 8" circle. It fell like a sack of rocks. We both knew it was an ethical shot. And we were both confident of the result when the trigger would be squeezed.
Beware of the sportsman who shoots a 30-06. He has never been tempted to shoot a 300WM because he has no reason. He pulls the trigger and the animals fall...
Just one guys perspective. Remember - These are my express opinions derived from my experiences - I know less than most and half as much as some!
Accuracy. I've shot $18 box lead and $25 box copper Federal from my 30-06. No idea what the velocity was, but accuracy worked. Can't wait to see how the hand loads shoot I'm currently working on
But don't you need velocity to make the mono bullets expand?? I think I will be visiting your shop a lot more in the next year for a gun build...let me get a hang of reloading first. I was thinking (and i guess I still am) about buying a Fierce Rival, but I know you could do a heck of a build for around that same price point.
I tikka t3x in .308 still shoots those dang federal coppers better than any other factory ammo. I just do not trust their expansion so i found myself going for anchoring shots with them.
Snake Charmer
Happiness is a warm gut pile
Regarding Hank and his contribution. Sorry if it does not meet the thread...I miss Hank'y he was the best buddy you could ever know in any sense of the word. When he found out my wife was sick he still came up an took of us he brought her pups and asked us to train them and then helped me try to keep the business going.The best man I have ever known to back me up when things went to hell...
Guys..i dont really hunt alot, just pull stuff off the internet..but i would say in my limited experience...if you have time to work loads up with the plehura of calibers available today go for it!! Why not? That being said, ive never done it...just bought the cheap crap off the self..plenty left too.
Very good leads and info.
I followed up on the leads and did a little reading on the subject.
A good g1 bullet can make good hunting round and g7 bullet great for long range.
Are stuck with a g7? Or what is the deciding factor.
Bullet weight is base on twist.
And get it on reloading quality control to
Keep the Reload ammo consistent.
1/2MOA ki
Another note twist is based on bullet length more than weight inherently a heavier modern bullet will be longer so weight does come into play. Monolithic/copper bullets are longer than lead since copper is lighter which means they require a faster twist. One of the biggest issues you are seeing with people not getting good groups with copper is a lot of factory especially older factory rifles don't have a fast enough twist to stabilize a lot of copper bullets. What you are seeing is a lot of now is guys like myself building rigs specifically for heavy for caliber bullets with faster twist. The big name rifle companies seem like they are starting to come around but not that fast.
Hopefully this kind of makes sense I am definitely far from an expert this is what I have gathered the more I have got into the long range stuff.
Caliber
7 mm
Bullet Weight
175 Grain
Product Line
Elite Hunter Hybrid
G1 BC
0.656
G7 BC
0.336
G7 Form Factor
0.922
Minimum Twist (or faster)
1:10"
Ogive Style
Elite Hunter Hybrid
Base Style
Boat Tail
Jacket
J4 Hunting Jacket
Sectional Density
0.31
Bullet Dia.
0.284
OAL
1.502
Base to Ogive
0.762
Nose Length
0.801
Bearing Surface
0.478
Boat Tail Length
0.207
G7 and G1 are not bullet types its just a different way of calculating BC. Most bullets will list both or one or the other. I like using G7 for my ballistic apps and rangefinders but to each his own. G1 is always a bigger number so that sounds cool. Below is the Bullet Data for a Berger .284 175g Elite Hunter you can see it list both G7 and G1.
Another note twist is based on bullet length more than weight inherently a heavier modern bullet will be longer so weight does come into play. Monolithic/copper bullets are longer than lead since copper is lighter which means they require a faster twist. One of the biggest issues you are seeing with people not getting good groups with copper is a lot of factory especially older factory rifles don't have a fast enough twist to stabilize a lot of copper bullets. What you are seeing is a lot of now is guys like myself building rigs specifically for heavy for caliber bullets with faster twist. The big name rifle companies seem like they are starting to come around but not that fast.
Hopefully this kind of makes sense I am definitely far from an expert this is what I have gathered the more I have got into the long range stuff.
Caliber
7 mm
Bullet Weight
175 Grain
Product Line
Elite Hunter Hybrid
G1 BC
0.656
G7 BC
0.336
G7 Form Factor
0.922
Minimum Twist (or faster)
1:10"
Ogive Style
Elite Hunter Hybrid
Base Style
Boat Tail
Jacket
J4 Hunting Jacket
Sectional Density
0.31
Bullet Dia.
0.284
OAL
1.502
Base to Ogive
0.762
Nose Length
0.801
Bearing Surface
0.478
Boat Tail Length
0.207
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ya that's very good info, since on line they stated 1-14 for heavier bullets. botail. g-7, that's a fast twist 1-10,
